Fansubbing a Good Thing?
Thanks to Satoshi for bringing this article to my attention. According to this report from Wired Magizine, the illegal practice of fansubbing and downloading anime off of the internet can be a beneficial thing to the market.
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As noted by Japanese entrepreneur Joi Ito, fans of the Japanese anime series Naruto regularly post translated episodes of the show to BitTorrent, which attracts more fans to the series.
The relatively obscure program has spawned a global following in online forums, internet relay chat channels and fan sites.
With box sets and special edition DVDs, Ito wrote, the copyright holders can make a tidy sum from fans prepared to “spend thousands of dollars on one show.”
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Whoa, whoa, whoa… now hold on here. I think that someone is misinterpreting something here. They’re saying that Naruto is going to become a huge success in terms of DVD and box set sales BECAUSE of it’s popularity in fansubbing? Someone is in for a rude awakening…
I’ll put it very bluntly right now: how many people who download the Naruto fansub will buy the DVDs when they come out? I predict that number to be less then 1%, with the rest of the 99% will spend their time bitching about how much it sucks on DVD.
Make no mistakes about it, fansubs are killing the anime market for the US. If you don’t believe me, think about just how many anime DVDs have you purchased recently compared to the number of shows you’ve downloaded for free. I for one will admit I haven’t bought any of the shows I’ve watched fansubbed yet. Now I would like to think that the reason for this is because none of them have been released yet, and when DearS and Girls Bravo come out this summer I’m going to buy them. But since that hasn’t happened yet, I can’t really claim I will really do so. Sometimes I begin to doubt that I will.
But I do know that one thing’s for sure, I see a lot of people still fansubbing and downloading series that have been licensed in the US, and it pisses me off like you wouldn’t believe. Now how can you justify that as being any better then people selling bootlegs on street corners? What a blatant disrespect to the artists and people working so hard to entertain you people.
Now let’s take a look at Naruto, the most popular anime buzz on the internet at the moment. There’s no doubt that people are loving it. When I attended Anime Boston this year, most of the cosplayers were from the series. I’m sure that these guys have watched all the episodes, but just how much money did those “fans” contribute to the people who made the series? A plushie or two? Sure, the anime series is not yet available in the US, but the manga has been out for some time. However, if you look at the sales in that market, Naruto isn’t even close to doing well! The fansub community doesn’t even support that market either.
However, what Mr. Ito said in the article was correct that the show is bound to be a huge success in the US. It has the kind of appeal that makes it so popular to a mass market. This is evident in Japan and the fansub community. So when the series is released to mainstream America, odds are that it will be a hit even with the non-anime fans. It will thrive on the television, action figure, and video game market, much like Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon did in the past. You will also a small portion of those fans picking up a volume of the manga and discovering how cool it is to read from right-to-left. And so they’ll buy the next one volume, and the one after that, and then they’ll try out some other series. That’s the next generation of anime fandom right there people!
And what will the fansub community think about Naruto then?
“It’s too mainstream. I don’t like it.”
So don’t keep up the denial that fansubs are good for the industry. Naruto is probably going to be very popular and will help the industry grow. But it’s going to do so by “selling out” and bringing in fans willing to watch shows on TV and buy DVDs. Unless the fansub community actually goes out there and support the series in these ways, then we’re doing nothing more then leeching off of the people that bring them the entertainment we love.
Well I don’t agree with you, and you haven’t provided any solid evidence, just your opinions so this reads like one big rant.
I do have to say though if you really feel this strongly about it then why do you download fansubs and/or raws? If you want to make a real statement, stop that and only watch commercially purchased anime. Somehow I doubt you’ll do that though.
Comment by Random Fan — June 3, 2005 @ 12:11 am
Hmmm, I would say both sides of the argument are valid, depending on the circumstances.
Maybe it’s a Chinese thing, but I only buy anime that I’ve watched before (at least 50% of a series). With the lack of people that I can borrow legit anime from in this hick town I’m in… I can say that 75% of my anime purchases are fansub-inspired. Take for example… “Genshiken.” Would I even consider picking it up at the store had I not seen the fansub first? I sure wouldn’t have paid money for it… and now I’m hooked on that series! RELEASE THE DVDs… DARN IT!
And I might add that some of the companies here are charging ridiculous prices. It can range from two to five times the price in Taiwan. While it’s not an excuse, I certainly can see why DVD sales are not super-strong.
On the other hand, if you can’t shell out $80 for a good, quality box set that is worth you money and go the underground route instead… that’s just wrong.
Comment by Token Asian — June 3, 2005 @ 3:43 am
i hate DVDs. ( I hate naruto, but thats another story.) They lock up the content, submit you to tedious menus, and my laptop usually lags while playing them. Also if you want to watch something, you have to have the disk in the drive. Also if you wanted to marathon something, you have to change disks all the time !
I much prefer my fansubs, not just because they are free, but they suit my needs better. they need a new method of distribution.
Also i’d never buy something i haven’twatched before. too much crap around. I plan to eventually purchase some of my favorite animes on dvd, or perhaps just give a $50 donation to the studio that made it….
PS. i have 2 legit dvds, Spirited Away and Gunsmith cats. i have watched neither (i have seen a fansub of SA before)
Comment by Willuknight — June 3, 2005 @ 3:51 am
ファンスブについての多くの騒ぎ . Much Ado About Fansubs
I was going to blog the seventh episode of Emma today (really I was!) to find that my copy was corrupted, so I’ll have to base it off the fansub which just came out today (which is both good timing,…
Trackback by Satoshi's Corner — June 3, 2005 @ 5:05 am
A Few Thoughts on Fansubs
So, in reference to an article that Scott posted up, which was in turn inspired by an article that Satoshi pointed out, here are a few thoughts about fansubs. Of course, I can see the evils and dangers of fansubbing, but I wanted to make a few counte…
Trackback by Sea Slugs! Anime Blog — June 3, 2005 @ 5:26 am
You say fansubs aren’t helping anime…so why are you watching fansubs? Because you like anime? Isn’t that selfish and immature? “leeching off of the people that bring them the entertainment we love”…but you’re doing that everyday right? Because you’re not buying DVD’s right? Yes, let’s post about how we need to support anime and clearly state we don’t or doubt we will buy DVD’s (that’s a great message for the anime community, isn’t it?). How is not buying DVD’s any different than people fansubbing licensed series’–either way they don’t “support the industry.” Good job man, keep up the good work.
Comment by rixot — June 3, 2005 @ 4:10 pm
So far I haven’t bought any anime DVDs - or DVDs whatsoever. I don’t even own a DVD drive or player. However - I have purchased several soundtrack CDs (yes, originals from Japan, not Hongkong stuff or the like). Without fansubs I’d never heard of the series at all here and certainly would not have purchased the CDs. This is not meant as an excuse and I don’t want to comment on the legality of fansubs. Nonetheless, the fact is that “anime industry” got money from me - they did not lose anything by me. Honestly, I’m not interested in buying one or two episodes of a series and a complete series usually costs 200$ to 800$. I even wonder what the audience for these DVDs is because where I from it’s possible but rather unusual to buy the DVDs for a TV series. This is rather something that hardcore fans would buy which might also explain the prices. After all a huge amount of anime isn’t intended for a global audience and never released or licensed outside of Japan. Of course, fansubs are also popular because of the disappointing shows in local TV stations. As long as TV stations do not quickly broadcast popular (Japanese) anime shows, the popularity of fansubs will increase. This is again an example that shows that the media industry is not up-to-date with modern technology and unable to satisfy their would-be customers.
Comment by Chris — June 3, 2005 @ 4:46 pm
Fansubbing a Good Thing?
This blogger takes exception to Joi Ito’s remarks in Wired….
Trackback by Anime! — June 3, 2005 @ 5:14 pm
” I predict that number (people who actually buy the show devided by the leechers)to be less then 1%”
Well said, I suppose this is your “evidence ” that fansubs is detrimental to the anime industry. I hope you did a survey to support your claim, WHERE IS IT?
Comment by Rainy — June 4, 2005 @ 2:56 am
“Make no mistakes about it, fansubs are killing the anime market for the US.”
said the man who downloaded Yakitate!! Japan fansubs…….
Comment by Andrea — June 4, 2005 @ 4:47 am
Problem here is that while some people do rely on fansubs as a substitute for a real purchase, some people don’t. I’m an example of a person who watches almost exclusively raws and fansubs but spend thousands a year on R1 DVDs. That’s not to mention possibly the largest demographic of fansub watchers: people, even without fansubs, will still not buy any DVDs because they are either poor, too young, or just don’t care about anime so much to want to spend the amount of money to keep up with this expensive hobby. Fansubs allows them access to free anime, but they’d rather not watch it if they can’t get it for free.
Comment by omo — June 4, 2005 @ 5:31 am
Basically, it’s all about return-revenue. Why is Ken Groove suing NuTech? Because they didn’t get their money back.
The technology’s out there for people to see shows from other countries; shows that will probably never see the light of day in other countries unless they’re either watered down or dumbed down. (As with the case of, say, Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura.)
My blame goes to the flood of anime that’s out now. So many titles to choose from; 90% of them are crap.
The truth is that fansubbing helps said anime show’s popularity but hurts the companies that create it. And, as always, nothing good will come out of this.
So here’s the million-dollar-question: Why does the US have stores that sell good products for around a dollar?
Comment by Tyrenol — June 6, 2005 @ 9:34 am
I think you are missing three important points. First, the DVDs are just too expensive when they get out. I invite you to check they real costs of producing a DVD in USA. You must consider that ALL animes were originally produced with the sales in the japanese market in mind, not with the international market sales, so when they arrive to the States they have already recovered their production costs most of the time.
And that gets us to the second point. Who do you think you’re paying to when you buy a DVD? You’re contributing very little to the “artists” (as some people like to cry) or more appropiately to the companies that made the show. Most of the money is going to the USA companies that brought it. They buy anime at low prices and sell them at very high prices. The whole system doesn’t work well.
The third point is timing. USA companies take too much time to buy and produce animes. Most fans can’t wait that long (2 or 3 years, most of the time even more).
Solve this problems (reduce costs and times) and do your work well (good quality, please) and you will reduce the issue of fansubbing.
Comment by Andres — June 11, 2005 @ 8:44 pm
>>>They buy anime at low prices and sell them at very high prices. The whole system doesnt work well.
Comment by Uni — June 14, 2005 @ 8:36 am
Hmm my last comment to Andres didn’t post all the way (i saved it)
but to make it short. Anime is not a cheap buy for the distributors. they need to make back money for the series.
Comment by Uni — June 15, 2005 @ 11:33 pm
Just wanted to add a different side of your article. The Escaflowne fansub (on video, no less) was what prompted me to buy Escaflowne, an art box, and the move deluxe set. Trigun fansubs convinced me to buy Trigun. I like to sample stuff before I buy, and that’s how I find the good stuff I want.
Comment by Brandon — June 30, 2005 @ 9:34 pm
Think of the benifits of a fansub following as less of a direct market and more of a research tool. A savvy American producer can get an inkling of a show’s potentential in the States by gauging the online reaction. It’s like a gigantic free focus group. In the end it won’t matter if the fansub crowd buys the DVD if the show catches on with a much larger audience.
You’re right, Naruto will do well here because it is good, but would it have been such a no-brainer liscense without the vast number of fans online and at conventions displaying their love for the show? In the current high-stakes executive-driven enviroment, a fansub following can be just the evidence needed to justify a liscense.
Comment by Jerivix — June 30, 2005 @ 9:39 pm
This entire rant ignores the power of word of mouth, which is the point that was made in the original quote (and apparently misunderstood). The point isn’t that all these rabid “Narutards” are going to watch Naruto again on TV here, or buy all the DVD’s, etc… it’s that all the people with whom these Narutards come into contact with on a daily basis will have been pre-exposed to the anime, and thus more inclined to watch it and/or show interest in it.
It’s really basic advertising - establishing brand awareness is what it’s all about. And make no mistake, anyone who knows a Narutard has heard all about how badass and awesome the show is, and a lot of them will end up watching it on TV or buying a DVD when they wouldn’t have grabbed a fansub due to lack of knowledge/motivation/etc.
Comment by Pete — June 30, 2005 @ 9:57 pm
What is the difference between someone borrowing episodes 1-5 of naruto from a friend (who bought it) and downloading it to your computer; and after watching those episodes throwing them of the HD. The difference is I give my friend his DVD back after I’m done. Then I say… “The series sucked”… or “I’ll borrow the next five episodes when u get em”. The people who wannt a DVD will keep on buying them because they like collecting, whilest others just don’t(They like to collect other stuff and so spend money on, let’s say for example books.) . Thats all there is too it, and so the market has to adapt to the rules(the consumers).
Comment by Blockhead — June 30, 2005 @ 9:58 pm
I see the points from the arguments offered by both sides. But I have to say that that US companies who produces and releases anime DVDs have really done a poor job. The quality of the video in the DVD is usually much worser compare to the raws I can download from the internet. The translation for the subtitles is surprisingly bad compare to the fansubs. Most of the dialogs for the DVD is just a literal translation from the Japanese dialogs without much attention on setting of the story presented in the anime. Fansubbers do a better job by choosing words that fit better into the story and the setting in the anime. ( I believe the reason is that they actually watch the episodes and follow the storyline.) These companies also take an extremely long time from acquiring the licenses to actually releaseing the products, at least 2 to 3 years. Then these US companies wants to charge a high, premium price for their inferior products. The inferior qualities of the DVDs just do not justify the high price points they are offering to the customers. I actually bought DVD boxsets for my favorite animes. But they disappoint me most of the time, only exception is Cowboy Bepop. Most of the time they didn’t come out until 3~4 years after the series had ended in Japan. Then when I watched them, I have to endured the poor translation jobs in the subtitles or the wicked dubbing. I just see no reason that these companies who have more resources make a half-ass products compare to a free fansubbed version done by people in their spare time. In the end, nobody is going to buy a bad product when they have a free better substitutes, even if it is illegal.
Comment by Link — June 30, 2005 @ 9:59 pm
There are two major problems with the Anime industry in America.
Problem One: The DVDs are just too expensive for the average anime buyer. Most anime-philes seem to be between the ages of 13 and 30. Sure the people out of college with real jobs can afford to pay $25 a DVD, but most fans cannot. Lower the price and quantity of sales should go up.
Problem Two: The other legitimate way to get anime is on TV…and I don’t even usually bother with this. While there are the occasional shows that are done very well in America, most are not. Between questionable voice-work and sometimes heavy-editing, most often I prefer the original Japanese versions…which leads me back to DVDs, which again I cannot afford. I buy them when I can, but honestly college is expensive and takes most of my money.
Comment by Typhinius — June 30, 2005 @ 10:00 pm
I’ve gotten fansubs in the past to sample series, this was back in the day when fansubbers would mail you vhs tapes, I guess some subbers may mail the dvd to you today, the subbers were charging about $3/tape for time and materials. I got a few episodes of City hunter and Berserk… guess what I bout both of the series on DVD, the City Hunter DVD release even used the fansubbers translation…. it would be great if more official releases used the Fansubbers translations…
Bottom line for me is that Fansubbers have introduced me to alot more anime and I’ve bought alot more official DVD releases than if I hadn’t been exposed to the fansubs. I’ve already got my 1st 400 disc dvd changer full, only 25% is anime, but still I can’t say that fansubbing has caused myself to purchase fewer anime DVD’s.
Finally, the hardcore people that dl fansubs are not a huge part of the market, those that never intend to purchase the official releases were never a potential customer anyway, they are a great resource for generating buzz for what new series to release stateside.
Where are my legit legend of Galactic heroes DVD’s!!!! Geez…. I don’t want to resort to the Hong Kong DVD’s, but there is no official US release yet.
Comment by jim — June 30, 2005 @ 10:34 pm
I disagree with you. Just because you have never bought an anime because of fansubs does not mean a very great number of anime fans don’t do so. I have purchased Fruits Basket and Earth Girl Arjuna based on watching the fansubs, and I would not have paid the nearly $100 for each series without having seen the fansubs first. I plan on doing the same for Azumanga Daioh when a box set is released. In addition, I have paid significant amounts of money for manga (GTO, Fruits Basket, Full Metal Panic) that I would not have purchased without watching the fansubs first. I don’t buy all the fansubs that I watch, in large part because many of the animes out there are just not that good.
These days, I try to rent already released anime from Netflix and only get fansubs for unreleased anime. It’s painful though, when the fansubs quality and thoroughness are far superior to the DVDs (in large part because of the limitations of the DVD format wrt subtitles).
Even when it comes to licensed animes, some of them are just not available in the US. For example, after much nagging from my wife, we started watching Sailor Moon, and to my surprise, I actually liked it. However, when we went looking for DVDs since the fansub quality is pretty atrocious, we found that the first 2 seasons are not available in their original uncut Japanese in the US anymore! Only the dubbed and heavily edited US versions are available, which I will not pay for.
Ultimately fansub lovers will pay for this stuff, if it’s available in a convenient format with as high quality as most modern fansubs. An equivalent of the itunes music store for anime would be great…
Comment by Anime fan — June 30, 2005 @ 10:48 pm
I’d just like to through my two cents in here:
Both sides of the debate have valid arguments, but the pro-fansub side is the one that I can verify from personal experience. Without the fansubs I’ve downloaded from the net, I would have never even heard of any of my favoraite animes, much less watched them, and much much less ever considered purchasing them. I haven’t yet purchased much on DVD (only Memories; a compilation of shorts, and the complete run of Lain), but those few dollars are dollars the anime industry wouldn’t have had otherwise. I also picked up a few Eva figures, which I certainly would never have had an interest in if I hadn’t downloaded all of Evangelion last year. I’m also going to be purchasing the Evangelion movie boxed set that was recently relaesed once I find it at a decent price, am always on the lookout for cheap Cowboy Bebop, and probably going to get one or both the of Ghost in the Shell manga books…. etc. etc.
In short, the availability of free fansubs have opened an entire genre of products up to me that I would have only been vaguely aware of, at best.
Do fansubs help the industry? I haven’t done any research to say one way or the other on a large scale, but In my case, they most certainly have.
Comment by Jacob Williams — June 30, 2005 @ 10:51 pm
Well, currently I own, roughly, 190 purchased Anime DVD’s. I got started with FanSubs on Video Tape way back when from a friend who helped FanSub. As soon as the shows I loved came out on DVD I bought them, as well as a large number of shows I never saw in FanSub.
If you love something, support it.
Comment by boojum the bunny — June 30, 2005 @ 11:02 pm
Sorry, everybody, but due to the popularity of this post, I’m going to have to close the comment feature on it for now. I understand that many of you disagree with my views on things, but I still hold true to them.
The whole point of the article is for people to prove me wrong with their actions instead of words. Buy a manga from your local bookstore. Buy or rent an anime DVD. Watch, tape, or even TiVo anime on TV! That’s all I’m asking. As long as I still see a lot of people asking for the latest Naruto or Samurai Champloo torrents on the net, I’ll keep on with my campaign.
Thanks for reading, and I hope to see some of you return for some more very opinionated rants from this anime fanboy! (^_^)
Comment by Scott — June 30, 2005 @ 11:11 pm